Sunday, November 30, 2008

Moving On

Well, friends, the end, I believe, has come.

Thank you for your thoughtful, varied, honest, insightful, and passionate debate in the comments section of my last post. It received the most comments of anything I've written, and the credit, I believe, goes to Ryan, for starting it all! I don't think you knew what you were getting into, did you? :) Thank you for your open mind and continued comments.

I've enjoyed the discussion because it brought together people and ideas from many corners of my life, and indeed of the world, both physical and intellectual. It's weird to be the conduit for connections between a high school friend and my college professor, a co-worker and my sibling, my best friend of today and my best friend of ten years ago. Weird, but good.

I tend to be a very concentrated thinker in the sense that I focus on one aspect or outcome of an idea and have difficulty seeing the largeness of an issue. Instead of seeing the potential implications of legalizing gay marriage for the world and for future generations, I see the implications for my gay friends today. Instead of questioning why the existence of humanity has meaning in a universe created by evolution, I focus on what gives my life meaning, and how I can bring meaning to the people I'm with. Maybe it is ignorance, or immaturity, or laziness, or just plain simple-mindedness, but sometimes I miss the forest for the trees. And that is why I'm grateful to each of you who has read and commented here. You are asking big questions and helping me to think about big answers. I hope I never stop being surrounded, physically and virtually, by people whose thinking is wide and deep, as yours is.

I have felt like this discussion was important enough to leave at the front of my blog, so I haven't posted since it began. But, selfishly, I have missed posting pictures of my vacation at the beach, or my family's beautiful thanksgiving dinner. I have missed reviewing a new record I got that I am in love with, and writing about two books that made me feel so alive inside I thought my heart was going to actually climb out through my ribcage and fly away. I am reclaiming my blog now. You may continue to comment on the Post of Great Contention, or you may let it quietly rest. Either is fine with me.

Several days ago a friend e-mailed to ask me if I felt my blog has gotten out of my control. I have not responded to him because I am still thinking about it. Controlling my blog never crossed my mind. While I certainly have issues with control (as do we all), mine manifest themselves in control of myself. I never felt a need to control my blog.

I think some of the hurtful or offensive things that were said in some comments were less violent to me because I was seeing them through the filter of my relationship with the person writing them. Of all of us involved here in the past few weeks, I am likely the only one who has a personal relationship and affection with all of the participants. I never felt offended (mildly irritated with the name-calling, but not offended) because I read these words with a history attached. I know that Kevin says things in order to shock people and make them think. In high school he told me that one day I would go crazy and murder my family, a la the Menendez brothers! I have never forgotten it, and as a result, I try very hard not to ever go crazy or murder anyone. (Srzly.) For some time now Israel and I have jokingly called each other mean names and those are some of my favorite times because they are full of laughter and affection. I know that Dustin is a very skilled and celebrated debate champion and in fact judges state debate competitions. He probably could have "won" the argument and made everyone cry in the process (a thing he really enjoys), but instead tried very hard to see things through others' eyes, from a worldview which is completely foreign to his own. I lived much of my life with a faith similar to Emily(s) and Ryan's, and I know that sometimes you just have to believe something that you don't necessarily understand, even if it looks silly to other people when you do so, because the truth is that it just works for you. So when Kevin sounds hateful and bullying, or Israel calls someone a "fundamentalist," or Dustin throws fistfuls of facts and spews crafty rhetoric, or Emily and Ryan cry "faith!" I see where they're coming from. I am not offended or hurt; I do not think they are stupid or weak.

I have come away from this discussion thankful that we are communicating and glad that we have come together. Some readers have thrown up their hands in frustration and turned away, and others have gotten angry or felt hurt. I hope if that is the case for you, that is not how you will leave the debate. I hope you will see the humanity in this page, and the good there. Perhaps this is my telescope-view again, but I am less concerned with changing minds or even laws, and more concerned with each of us finding humanity, goodness, tolerance, and love--from others, and also within ourselves.

9 comments:

mrscamacho said...

Holy shit! I had NO IDEA that entry got so many comments! I just left my little bit of applause and went on my way. lol.

How exhausting.

My problem is that fundamentally, I'm a Christian, but I'm so UNfundamentalist that many Christians don't even recognize me as such. It makes it very difficult to find community. I tend to get along better with the "lost" than the "saved."

Katie said...

good thing for me since i fall solidly in the lost category! :)

Emily said...

good thoughts, sister. i love you.

Anonymous said...

Emily,

I had typed up a response to you before Katie decided to move on, I’ll post it here so you can see it, but not in the spirit of moving the fight from the bar to the street. And I’ve changed it, and shortened it. Believe me when I say what follows was written without malice or mockery. (And I’ve tried very hard to keep sarcasm out.)

Minutes after posting my response, I emailed your sister that I had made a generalization about you, that because you’re a Christian therefore you’re a bigot. And you called me on it. I never asked how you felt about rights concerning homosexuals. And I’ll close on the Christians/bigot thing at the end.

You were honest about not knowing certain things about Christianity/the bible and I’ve promised your sister that whatever path of discovery you’re on, I don’t want to knock you off that.

I would never want a world free from judgment. Judgment is one of the ways that things change. I hold no issue with judgment of someone’s belief, including my own, because I feel that if one cannot back it, one should reconsider it. That is what my golden rule quote at the end meant. I’m a rude person who questions and yells and I fully expect it to be done back to me. I’ve really enjoyed your retorts due to how you expressed them.

On the subject of my questions and you not having answers, I believe I’ll bring back the Christianity/bigot point and begin my close.

If your belief differs from what Christianity preaches then you must reconcile only one of two things: that your personal belief is wrong, or that Christianity doesn’t fit you. I hope you’ll choose the latter. I don’t consider you a religious nut by any stretch of the imagination, nor truly any of the other people from the previous blog. The Chris Blake gentleman opened Ryan’s eyes to the possibility of being born gay, that was something that due to Ryan’s…world?...he wasn’t aware of. However before that, he assumed what other Christian people told him to be true. (And I’m making an assumption there, but only for my point, not a jab at Ryan). I don’t expect you to condemn gays to hell or blame 9/11 on gays, but you claim to be part of a church that does. If one were to judge a religion on their holy book, as I do, then every Christian, Muslim, and Jew would be a bigot. I don’t believe you can cherry pick what you believe from any respected holy book. You however are not a bigot, and neither are millions of other practicing members of the three stated religions. The label fits what these religions themselves stand for, but not some members of those religions. And those members push back against people like me; however none of you will step up and change anything. If the majority of Christians don’t have issues with gay marriage then that should be the new opinion of Christianity. And if the majority of Christians do have an issue with gay marriage, then those that don’t should realize that Christianity is not for them.

If the bible is wrong/outdated on some issues, then it might be wrong/outdated on the Jesus issue. I’m not saying you cannot believe in a supernatural god, but you should find one that matches your viewpoints and not just conform to a set list.

I want you in your own time; I’ll never ask again or check up on you, to read a few books.

Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln. This book is so long and boring it should be the last thing you ever read except for the final tiny bit of the book. But you must read it from the beginning. The authors, while researching a TV documentary stumble across an interesting find and you follow along with them to their conclusion. It’s so painstakingly fact checked it will put you to sleep, but you’ll want the fact checking and research for when you get to the end. It’s truly a great read, if you can make it through.

Two other middle ground ones to try:
From Jesus to Christianity by L. Michael White
Misquoting Jesus by Bart D. Ehrman

Some others for potential interest:
(not in any order, but I’d leave the Dawkins one for last.
The End of Faith by Sam Harris
Gnostic Gospels and The Origin of Satan by Elaine Pagels
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris
One last thing Emily, if you want to just choose faith as your defense then you’re fine to do so, forget arguing with me, but with other more rational people it does help if you know the background on what your faith/religion is based on. Learning it might not even shake your faith but take steps towards strengthening it.

Read an ‘alternative view’ of what the Council of Nicea was.

Israel,

I have been warned about the danger of your boner. And I back away slowly as not to scare the beast and thus lose an eye.


Sinfully,

Kevin

wagner israel cilio iii said...

kevin,

i know that bodily appendages normally pull little sway within circles of rhetoric and persuasion but i felt you-- nay, humanity--had to be warned.

afterall it was jesus who said 'why do you like at the speck in your brother's eye when you have a boner in your own.'

the man spoke trooff.

mrscamacho said...

Emily, Kevin gives you some good book recommendations. Let me add a few of my own that helped me along my journey:

C.S. Lewis: Mere Christianity
Francis Schaeffer, A Francis Schaeffer Trilogy: The God Who Is There, Escape from Reason, He Is There and He Is Not Silent
Ravi Zacharias: Can Man Live Without God?
(Ravi's website, rzim.org has many excellent free podcasts about Christian apologetics. This man does not make it easy to be a Christian; he really makes you THINK about what you believe and to be rational about it.)
Donald Miller: Blue Like Jazz

There seems to be great pressure to throw out the whole "Christian" label because it has gotten so convoluted over time. Many people, in order to harken back to the original message of Jesus, simply call themselves "Christ-followers" or other similar titles.

The problem I have with that is it feels like giving up ground on the true definition of Christian. Most people who call themselves "Christians" - as Kevin pointed out at some point - really aren't living according to the Christian Tao. So I still call myself Christian - me with my beer drinking, hookah smoking, sailor cussing ways. Because I am. I follow the teachings of Jesus (imperfectly, but whole-heartedly), and I do it authentically with my real self and no fakery. I would hope that the Church will some day follow suit.

Katie said...

thank you gentlemen for ensuring that if i were going to receive a familial inheritance, there is no chance of that now.

although it might have been worth losing the meager funds left to me in a parental will for the laughs i had over each of your comments.

Anonymous said...

Katie,

As for the meager funds left you, they at least have to leave a dollar. Or you would be able to sue saying they forgot. So find comfort in that dollar. Be thankful for that dollar. And make your plans now on if you going to spend it at burger king or mcdonalds dollar menu. Or in the south MacDonalds.

mrscamacho said...

Okay, not to kick a dead horse or anything, because the title IS "moving on," but did you SEE THIS?!

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/

Jack Black as Jesus. Among other things. :)